User talk:76.213.224.139

May I ask what your problem is? -- SFH 05:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

My best guess is this is Floro himself who is completely outraged that anyone but him would get credited for design work on Transformers. After all this is the guy who claims Takara's Diaclone Planet Robo design was stolen from the Unicron design he'd make years later. --Detour 05:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we're worth the real Floro Dery's time.--Rosicrucian^Talk 05:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you've noticed his past track record. Clearly, we are. (We are also racist robots.) --M Sipher 05:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem and I am not Floro. My name is Charlie Alvarado, a Transformers fan. Your are the one who has a problem posting speculative informations without supporting visual evidence. - Charlie —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.213.224.139 (talk • contribs).

Hi Floro. We've got Shohei's art posted on his article, it can't get more visually evident than that. And where is your visual evidence that our information is wrong? --Detour 14:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It's useles to continue arguing without resolving and answering the following questions:

1. Why George Dunsay in his interview said that Takara and Hasbro were not involved in the creative concept of the transforming planet?

2. Why Mr. Dery and Hiroyuki were given credits in the 1989 Japanese Transformers movie version?

3. Why Mr. Dery is given credit and Hiroyuki has no credit in the 1986 US Transformers movie version?

4. Why the Unicron design of Hiroyuki that is posted here is not dated?

5. Why the alleged claim that the posted cartoon designs here were done by Shohei when in fact the cartoons were designed by Mr. Dery in 1984 which were published by Marvel people recently in the book Transformers: Ark according to Joshua Chapman? Here's the Amazon website

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1600100805?showViewpoints=1

6. Why the alleged Shohei's cartoon designs posted here is not dated?

7. Why the incredible misinformations in these website?

- Charlie —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.213.224.139 (talk • contribs) 17:27, 7 January 2008.

Pagebreak 1 for sanity

The drawings of Shohei's are based on Mr. Dery's cartoon designs compiled in the Transformers: Ark. Besides Shohei's drawings are not dated. Hiroyuki's design is also not dated. DATE is the litmus test.

The book OLD ART from STUFF BEFORE TRANSFORMERS, there is no such book. Don't invent. Assuming there is such a book, OLD ART of what?

You people are contradicting George Dunsay who said that TAKARA is not involved in the design of the transforming planet, which proved that Mr. Dery is the originator of the transforming planet Unicron.

You people proved nothing, in fact you have shown that your articles are just SPECULATIONS and MISINFORMATIONS to twist the truth. Why?

For your information, I e-mailed the guy maintaining the website of Mr. Dery, offering Mr. Dery that I will finance and publish his original colored Transformers designs as an art book. If Mr. Dery agrees, I will let you people know. I am thinking of a book title that will drive you people crazy.

I posted here because you blocked my other IP address. I proved that all of you are wrong and confused, so you blocked my IP.

Pity, but no thanks for all your insults directed against me. But I am not surprise because, generally, those who cannot win the arguments usually use insults to silence their opponents

- Charlie

Hello, my name is Floro Dery, and I inventend Transformers. In fact, I invented robots long before Japan ever even heard of them.

I also invented Hasbro. And Takara.--Nevermore 00:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm Floro Dery! - Chris McFeely 00:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Guys, if this guy wants to rant to his audience of one, let him. We have better things to do. -- SFH 00:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

How dare you say that to me, Floro Dery. Clearly, you're just a racist. - Chris McFeely 00:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

1. Hasbro and Takara were not involved in the creation of Unicron. Everyone here agrees that Floro created Unicron. What he didn't do is create the concept of a transforming planet. That concept was created by someone at Takara before 1985. That "Japanese Unicron" is not Unicron, and was not created for Transformers; the art from the book the scan was taken from is about Takara action figure lines from before 1985, and therefore predates the movie. Floro may have very well came up with the idea of a transforming planet on his own; he just wasn't the first to put the idea to paper.

2. Floro made the animation models. Hiroyuki was likely involved in the Japanese localization (This consisted of translating the script, recording new voice tracks, and adding Japanese credits. Nothing else was changed)

3. Hiroyuki was probably only involved in the Japanese localization, and would therefore not be included in the credits from the original (READ: English Language) version.

4. It is a scan of concept art. Any dates or other information included on the sheet are not part of the actual concept art and therefore would not be included in any compilations.

5. Floro Dery made the character models actually used in the cartoon. However, those were simplified (read: easier to animate) versions of the ones made by Shohei.

6. It is a scan of a character model. Any dates or other information included on the sheet are not part of the actual character model and therefore would not be included in any compilations.

7. If you can find a mistake that can be verified with more then "HE TELL ME" (IE, something that has been published, or an interview transcript), be free to fix it.

8. No, I'm Floro Dery, and I invented Japan and the concept of toys. --FortMax 00:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

9. I just got Edit Conflicted'd three times trying to make this post.

I know this basically repeats a lot of what FortMax just said, but I spent a while typing it, so darned if I'll let it go to waste. (Besides, I probably was one reason he got an Edit Conflict, and vice-versa.)

Let's see, point by point...

The drawings of Shohei's are based on Mr. Dery's cartoon designs compiled in the Transformers: Ark.

And the proof of this is...? You have offered comments on the some of the process involved in the creation of Mr. Dery's designs. None of this proves whether or not the Japanese designs were based on his. However, the comparison picture shown here seems to indicate Mr. Dery in fact simplified some of Mr. Kohara's designs.

Besides Shohei's drawings are not dated. Hiroyuki's design is also not dated. DATE is the litmus test.

If no date is available for a piece of art, that does not negate its worth for the argument. It's very helpful, yes, but not the one and only means of proof.

The book OLD ART from STUFF BEFORE TRANSFORMERS, there is no such book. Don't invent. Assuming there is such a book, OLD ART of what?

This is obviously a description of a book, not a title, yet you are making fun of it because it doesn't sound like a real title. You are using very poor arguing tactics and insulting people by accusing them of lying about the book's existence. In short, you are doing just what you accuse others here of doing. Pity, pity.

The book in question is Takara SF Land Archives (Takara SF Land Daizenshuu, タカラSFランド大全集), published by Kodansha in November 1999. As you can see from the cover image here, it contains images and information on various Takara-original SF toy lines from the 1970s and early 1980s, including Henshin Cyborg, Magnemo, Microman (including Microchange), and Diaclone. All these toy lines predate Transformers. The last two toy lines were the primary source of toy designs for the original TF line from 1984-1985, and even 1986 (e.g., Ultra Magnus). Scattered throughout the book's pages are illustrations showing design art for various Takara toys from those toy lines, along with concept art of toys that were never produced...such as the Planet-Robot drawn by Mr. Hataike.

You people are contradicting George Dunsay who said that TAKARA is not involved in the design of the transforming planet, which proved that Mr. Dery is the originator of the transforming planet Unicron.

It's likely Mr. Dery did design Unicron. That does NOT mean he created the idea of a transforming planet. There is a distinct difference.

You people proved nothing, in fact you have shown that your articles are just SPECULATIONS and MISINFORMATIONS to twist the truth. Why?

The articles here have provided more visual proof than you have, and argued their case better. Regardless of how people have responded to you personally, the articles themselves present their material quite well. Of course, your biggest gripe of "misinformation" seems to be that the articles claim Mr. Dery didn't design Unicron. They do not claim this. They suggest he did not create the idea of a transforming planet, which is something else entirely. As evidence to support this suggestion, they provide an image from a book about Takara toys that predate TFs.

For your information, I e-mailed the guy maintaining the website of Mr. Dery, offering Mr. Dery that I will finance and publish his original colored Transformers designs as an art book. If Mr. Dery agrees, I will let you people know.

I think that would actually be a pretty cool project.

I am thinking of a book title that will drive you people crazy.

So you'd risk alienating part of your potential readership?

I posted here because you blocked my other IP address. I proved that all of you are wrong and confused, so you blocked my IP.

Your other IPs were blocked because posting from multiple IPs was cluttering the wiki and, in combination with your belligerent attitude, it made you look trollish. All you have to do is register for an account on the wiki; that would solve the problem neatly.

Pity, but no thanks for all your insults directed against me. But I am not surprise because, generally, those who cannot win the arguments usually use insults to silence their opponents

The same can be said for people who cannot win by stubbornly and angrily repeating unsupported claims, and so resort to condescension and self-righteousness when they find they've irritated others.--Apcog 01:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Pagebreak 2 for sanity

I know from your article here that Mr. Dery was the design supervisor of the original series. Assuming that he simplified the simplified drawings of Shohei, then what will his assistants be doing? Are these assistants be simplifying the simplified drawings of Mr. Dery from the simplified drawings of Shohei? This is foolish, isn't it? Marvel studio producer is not an idiot to allow such thing. This shows that Shohei was the one who copied Mr. Dery's cartoon designs.

So, the Japanese book was published in 1999 and the Transformers movie came out in 1986, probably the transforming planet Unicron designs of Mr. Dery were done in 1985. That's a difference of almost 15 years.

Truly, you inadvertently proved that Mr. Dery was the originator of the transforming planet Unicron, Hiroyuki is just a copycat. Also, George Dunsay was right that Takara was not involved in the design of the transforming planet Unicron. You see, what matters is the DATE because the date is the LITMUS TEST.

I will e-mail your post here to the guy maintaining the website of Mr. Dery, to let them know about these things.

Thank you very much, you also proved that all my posts here are right and your allegations are wrong.

- Charlie

a book called the ark came out last year and it featured all of dery's animation models since the japanese book came out in 1999 and the book with dery's art came out in 2007 that means the japanese design predates dery's design by 8 years!

You forgot, the Transformers movie came out in 1986, the original series in 1984. Got you there! - Charlie

Diaclone ran from 1980-1985.--Rosicrucian^Talk 01:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, responding point by point:

I know from your article here that Mr. Dery was the design supervisor of the original series. Assuming that he simplified the simplified drawings of Shohei, then what will his assistants be doing?

First, if you know Japanese so well, you should know that the Japanese artists' last names are Kohara and Hataike. Just a minor point, but it's been bothering me.

Mr. Kohara's drawings are noticeably more complex than Mr. Dery's. Why do you call them simplified? You are starting this argument on a flawed premise.

Are these assistants be simplifying the simplified drawings of Mr. Dery from the simplified drawings of Shohei?

Mr. Kohara's art isn't simplified. Mr. Dery's is, for the purpose of being easier to animate. Why would assistants need to simplify it further? Why are you even talking about assistants here?

This is foolish, isn't it? Marvel studio producer is not an idiot to allow such thing. This shows that Shohei was the one who copied Mr. Dery's cartoon designs.

It shows no such thing. It's easy to see that Mr. Kohara's art is more detailed than Mr. Dery's. Why would he create more complex models for animation from Mr. Dery's simpler models, when the simpler models were needed for animation? Just because you personally think it would be silly for assistants to simplify Mr. Dery's drawings (and that's not even relevant), that doesn't prove anything about which artist drew designs first.

So, the Japanese book was published in 1999 and the Transformers movie came out in 1986, probably the transforming planet Unicron designs of Mr. Dery were done in 1985. That's a difference of almost 15 years.

And the book Transformers: The Ark, which contains Mr. Dery's designs, came out last year, 8 years after Takara SF Land, 21 years after the movie, and "probably" 22 years from Mr. Dery's designs. So what?

And that's another point—"probably"? So you don't know for sure when those designs were done?

Truly, you inadvertently proved that Mr. Dery was the originator of the transforming planet Unicron, Hiroyuki is just a copycat.

Truly, I have proven no such thing. First, no one is arguing Mr. Dery didn't design Unicron, only that Mr. Hataike's art came before the Unicron design.

Second, you keep SAYING Mr. Hataike's art came after Mr. Dery's, but your only "proof" of this is the lack of a date on Mr. Hataike's work. That isn't proof. It lends to speculation, yes, but it is NOT proof.

Then, just above, you say Mr. Dery's designs were "probably" done in 1985. If the date is really the big litmus test, don't Mr. Dery's designs have a date on them? If they do, why are they only "probably" from 1985?

Also, George Dunsay was right that Takara was not involved in the design of the transforming planet Unicron. You see, what matters is the DATE because the date is the LITMUS TEST.

Why do you keep coming back to whether Mr. Dery designed Unicron? No one is saying he didn't design Unicron. We ARE saying he was not the first to design a transforming planet. Unicron was NOT the first transforming planet design in the world, that's all. The Planet-Robot design in the Takara SF Land book predates Unicron, but it is NOT Unicron. Mr. Dery designed Unicron.

Even if we ignore that point, the date is A litmus test. It is not THE litmus test. No matter how often as you insist it is, that doesn't make it true. If you're basing your entire argument on the fact that there is no date on Mr. Hataike's work, then you have only a very weak basis. And if you're not even sure when Mr. Dery's designs were drawn, then your argument has NO basis.

I will e-mail your post here to the guy maintaining the website of Mr. Dery, to let them know about this things.

Go right ahead; the wiki and its Talk pages are already public, so Mr. Dery's web master is free to read them anyway. Frankly, I don't think telling him about these pages will make a difference, but there's no reason you shouldn't.

Thank you very much, you also proved that all my posts here are right and your allegations are wrong.

Without insult, I have shown you several times how your reasoning and arguments are flawed. I don't understand how you can believe you've won any argument, unless you are simply choosing to ignore what I and others here have been saying. I'll repeat my main points, just to be sure you're clear on them:

• 1. No one is saying Mr. Dery didn't design Unicron.

• 2. Just because Mr. Dery designed Unicron, that doesn't mean he was the first person to design a transforming planet.

• 3. There is a Planet-Robot image in the Takara SF-Land book, an entire book devoted to Takara toy designs that predated Transformers. While there is no date on that specific image, since it is in an entire book of designs that predate Transformers, it is not unreasonable to believe that the design also predates Transformers.

• 4. Just because Takara had a transforming planet design before Unicron's design, that doesn't mean Mr. Dery didn't design Unicron. It just means he wasn't the first to design a transforming planet.

I hope this clears up the situation. You don't need to prove Mr. Dery designed Unicron. You have not proven Mr. Kohara or Mr. Hataike's work was copied or based on Mr. Dery's work. The date by itself is not enough, and absence of a date does not equal a date after Mr. Dery's work.--Apcog 01:33, 9 January 2008(UTC)

Doug, you should use less negative forms. "Charlie" doesn't seem to comprehend sentences that contain double negations and the likes. You yhould say it like this: "Mr. Dery designed Unicron. Nobody denies that." And so on.--Nevermore 09:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I know from your article here that Mr. Dery was the design supervisor of the original series. Assuming that he simplified the simplified drawings of Shohei, then what will his assistants be doing? Are these assistants be simplifying the simplified drawings of Mr. Dery from the simplified drawings of Shohei? This is foolish, isn't it? Marvel studio producer is not an idiot to allow such thing. This shows that Shohei was the one who copied Mr. Dery's cartoon designs.

As far as anyone knows, the character models that were made in Japan and simplified by Mr. Dery were the ones for the Transformers released in 1984. A number of those earlier, more complex models were actually used in the first two or three Marvel Transformer comics and the animated commercial for the original mini-series. Also, the models for the toys released in 1985 generally keep toy's proportions and have more toy-accurate weapons. The 1984 models are gennerally taller and thinner, especially when comparing Trailbreaker and Prowl/Bluestreak, and Starscream/Skywarp/Thunderckacker to Hoist, Smokescreen and Dirge/Ramjet/Thrust. --FortMax 02:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to make it clear, while wiping away the tears of laughter at "Charlie's" arguments, Kohara's models as originally drawn up were never animated. They were all cleaned up by Dery first. Megatron's design however was revised twice, so he actually has three models - Kohara's original, Dery's first revision that appeared in the early commercials and comics, and the final version that appeared everywhere else. Hopefully the more accurate we can make things the less Pity's (sic) we'll get! Jon T 10:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I greatly enjoy this person. He is rich in entertainment. -Derik 02:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Pagebreak 3 for sanity

Earlier Charlie asked about providing proof that Shohei Kohara's models predated Dery's own. Here's proof, straight from an interview with Dery by Zobovor:

There you have it, Charlie. Go away now.

Ha ha ha. That's BRILLIANT. (Of course, now Charlie will claim that Zobovor retroactively edited the interview)--Nevermore 09:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is a qoute from Mr. Dery's website http://hometown.aol.com/kuest144/transanimdes.html

"These are just a few of the numerous Transformers animation cartoon designs by Floro Dery. Initially, Dery used 3 rough designs from Korea or Japan and about 3 toy box arts which he redesigned, simplified, and changed for animation. The producer told him to discontinue the use of the toy box arts because of possible copyright violations, after which he based almost all of his designs on the toys. Nevertheless, it created a misconception for some and wrongly attributed Dery's designs to the artists of Takara, TOEI, Studio Ox, and Marvel Comics. The fact is that these studios used Dery's designs but didn't give him credit. Anyway, can you recognize the names of the following cartoon characters?"

I will believe more what Mr. Dery said. He was at the studio and you people were not.

The 3 designs were from Korea or Japan, Mr. Dery said? Probably from Korea because the producer was a Korean.

- Charlie

So basically Dery is completely contradicting what he's said in Zobovor's interview. How can we believe anything he says if he says different things in different places? And why does he refer to himself in the third person? --64.229.54.158 04:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I have just read Zobovor's interview, I think Mr. Dery did not contradict himself.

Why does he refer to himself in the third person? Do not ask me. Better still, you ask Mr. Dery, or ask the guy maintaining his website.

- Charlie

Because you talk the exact same way as Ote and kuest144? Either way, this little tidbit must've slipped by you, or you intentionally blocked it out.

Dery himself admits the season 1 designs originally came from Japan and he only modified them. So your claims that we are wrong about Shohei Kohara's contributions to the medium are wrong, because even Floro admits to his contributions. --64.229.54.158 05:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

except that you posted following: I know from your article here that Mr. Dery was the design supervisor of the original series. Assuming that he simplified the simplified drawings of Shohei, then what will his assistants be doing? Are these assistants be simplifying the simplified drawings of Mr. Dery from the simplified drawings of Shohei? This is foolish, isn't it? Marvel studio producer is not an idiot to allow such thing. This shows that Shohei was the one who copied Mr. Dery's cartoon designs. --FortMax 16:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I read what Mr. Dery said, he said "from Korea or Japan."

I was the one who posted "MOST OF THE INFORMATIONS POSTED HERE ARE JUST TRASH!" in your article about Mr. Dery. Mr. Dery did not post this. Why are you attributing it to Mr. Dery? I cannot change it because you BLOCKED my IP in that site.

It is already apparent to me that anyone who defends Mr. Dery, you people automatically assume it is Mr. Dery. Pity! One of these days, I will let my friends post here also. I am just curious, Ote and kuest144, who are they?

- Charlie Alvarado

The word "information" is rarely pluralized in normal English usage.

Your usage of the word "pity" is highly idiosyncratic. Do you mean, "I pity you guys," "You guys are pitiful", or "It's a pity you guys believe this stuff"? If it's the second one, I might suggest that if you actually want to change our minds, insulting us won't help.

Your sentence, "One of these days, I will let my friends post here also," suggests that you are currently forbidding your friends from posting here. Surely I misunderstand you.

Please sign your posts to Talk pages by ending the post with four tildes Like so: "~~~~" Doing so will make it easier for us to follow your arguments, and will show that you are willing to work within the spirit of this wiki.

Thank you. JW 15:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you also for correcting my grammar. My english is twisted by my Mexican/Japanese languages. But I like my english, and if you do not like it that is your problem. The discussion here is also not about English grammars.

I do not forbid my Transformers fans friends because I do not have the right to do that. What I mean by what I said is this, "one of these days, I will let my friends know about this discussion and they can post here also if they want." In fact I have told them already about this site. They told me not to put up with you people because it is just a waste of my time.

- Charlie

"They told me not to put up with you people because it is just a waste of my time." Fine case of the pot calling the kettle black. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.200.150.45 (talk • contribs).

"I like my english, and if you do not like it that is your problem." If you are trying to change our minds about Floro Dery, you are more likely to succeed if we can easily understand you. If you don't care if we understand you, then you won't change our minds.

Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding about your friends. They sound like smart people.

However: Please sign your posts to Talk pages by ending the post with four tildes, like so: "~~~~" If you do this, we will be more likely to listen to you respectfully. If you don't do it, we're more likely to ignore you. If you don't understand what I mean, please ask for clarification. JW 22:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Picture Copyright

May I ask, do you people have permission from Mr. Dery to use his picture? If you do not have written consent, you better think twice! - Charlie 76.213.239.15 20:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Dery is not the copyright holder on that photograph.--Rosicrucian^Talk 21:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The copyright holders you are referring to of Mr. Dery's picture were probably given consent by him, and you people have no written consent from him. These copyright holders are not idiots just to use his picture, that will be a legal ground against them.

Another thing, by using a copyrighted picture without consent from Mr. Dery and these copyright owners, you people are violating the terms of use of Wikia of copyrighted materials.

- Charlie 76.213.239.15 21:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

We don't need Dery's consent, he holds no copyrights on it. The photo is qualified as being "fair use" anyway so we're not doing anything wrong by using it. Besides, it's like the ONLY picture of Dery on the interweb so we have to use it, unless you have a better one to offer us. --74.57.3.251 23:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC) (Detour at work)

So the person has no right to his picture, what kind of logic is that? You people are not doing anything wrong with the picture? You use it to assassinate the charater of Mr. Dery. Be careful.

As a consolation to you people, according to this delamesa10 which unknowingly you lead me to this blog

[1]

"delamesa10 said... The picture of Floro Dery you're using is the picture of his father. Go to the Filipino websites, you can find pictures of Dery as a little boy and his father."

Imagine that, out of desperation, you people are using the picture of Mr. Dery's FATHER. I do not know if you people are COMEDIANS, or what? Next time you might be using the picture of Mr. Dery's grandfaher, brother, etc.

Your website is really getting COMICAL.

- Charlie 76.213.226.23 20:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well you're delamesa10 so of course you'll agree with yourself.... Either way this must be a photo of Dery since it was used on a Filipino website originally. Delamesa10 has posted no evidence whatsoever that this is Dery's father, it's his word against the one of Randy Valiente, Transformers Philippines... and I'm far more likely to believe the latter's words. Not to mention the fact that there's actually a source on this photo, "A History of Komiks of the Philippines and other Countries (Islas Filipinas 1985)". So there. --74.57.3.251 20:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC) (Detour, not logged in)

We therefore have to use the numerical IP address to identify him/her. Such an IP address can be shared by several users. If you are an anonymous user and feel that irrelevant comments have been directed at you, please create an account or log in to avoid future confusion with other anonymous users.